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Congratulations to Derek Jeter and another Fine year including his Gold Glove. He is certainly one of the all time greats. However, With that being Said.....and for the sake of friendly discussion I wanted to weigh in with a few points.
Again, as a Disclaimer I firmly agree Jeter is one of the Greatest SS and/or Players in the history of Baseball. I am not here to diminish his career or bash it. However, what Yankee fans and BroKo keep dismissing and turning into "Yankee Hating" Chatter is all we are trying to point out is that he is in the twilight of his career and his skills are slowly eroding and declining as evidenced by all stats he puts up. It's not hating it simply mother nature...it happens to all of them.....Except Rocky Balboa.
Anyway, Since you guys love stats how about this from a New York Sportswriter: Here are some great excerpts:
You really don't need to consult any statistics or advanced fielding metrics to know what your own eyes told you if you watched enough Yankees games this season, which is that there can really be no argument that both Teixeira and Cano are among the best, if not the best, at their respective positions.
And neither did you need any numbers to tell that Jeter is not.
This is not to say he is a bad shortstop. Far from it. At 36, Jeter remains sure-handed and rifle-armed. His instincts, as always, are perfect -- his fundamentals rock-solid. Along with Cano -- and some would say, because of Cano -- he still turns a terrific double play.
Any ball hit right at him is a guaranteed out.
And that is both a compliment and an indictment. Because if it isn't hit right at him, and I mean right at him, then it's a base hit.
That is why, when you look at the American League shortstop rankings according to conventional (read: your grandfather's) wisdom, you will see Jeter's name right at the top. According to those numbers, Jeter had a phenomenal year in the field in 2010. He made just six errors in 151 games, handled 547 of 553 chances flawlessly, and ran up a fielding percentage of .989, the best in the league.
The reason that error total is so low, and the percentage so high, is because at 36 Jeter doesn't get to nearly the number of balls he once did -- or as many as most of his peers do regularly.
A half-dozen AL shortstops handled more chances than Jeter did this season. Some, such as Alexei Ramirez of the White Sox and Cliff Pennington of the Oakland A's, had as many as 200 more in just a handful more games (Jeter played 151, Ramirez and Pennington 156). Elvis Andrus of the Texas Rangers got to 100 more balls than Jeter in three fewer games.
Every one of them, of course, made more errors than Jeter -- in fact, Ramirez made 20, Pennington 25 -- but the reason should be apparent. Shortstops who get to more balls are going to make more errors.
Jeter gets to comparatively fewer balls, and consequently makes fewer errors. Again, the ones that are hit right at him, he gobbles up. Anything more than one giant step to his left or right is a base hit.
So does that really qualify him as the best shortstop in the league? Probably not.
In fact, those who swear by many of the advanced fielding metrics currently in vogue will try to make the case that he is in fact one of the worst.
One such rating system, the Fielding Bible, ranked Jeter 32nd out of 35 shortstops rated in 2010 based on his diminishing range. According to its measurements, Jeter's numerical score was a minus-12 on balls hit to his right, a minus-11 on balls hit to his left, and a plus-8 on balls hit straight at him.
That means the "average'' shortstop will get to 12 more balls to his right and 11 more to his left than Jeter will. However, Jeter will stop eight more balls than Mr. Average provided the ball is coming straight at him.
I am not in that faction, but even without using advanced mathematics it is impossible to deny what your eye can clearly see. Jeter simply does not have much range anymore -- nor does his partner on the left side of the Yankees infield, Alex Rodriguez. Anything hit fairly sharply between the two of them is a base hit. Period.
That doesn't make him a bad shortstop, just a limited one -- limited mostly by the one factor that will eventually get all of them: age.
Huh.....Interesting Points? Again, Please don't take this as Yankee Bashing just pointing out his age and decline. Would I want Jeter on My Team....Of Course! Is he better than Robin Yount......probably. However, if my goal was to win championships would I want a 38 or 39 yr old Jeter whose skills are steadily declining each year.....Probably Not. I am not trying to diminish his career or say some Brewer was better than him...cause that is clearly not the case. Just trying to make some interesting observations.
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10 comments:
Incredible. Simply fascinating.
Why don't we acknowledge every single player in the league that is aging then?
Why just Jeter? Why single him out to what you say is just "mother nature." I'm sure there are plenty of other players in the league who are aging as well.
I just love the absolute, undeniable need to point out even the most obvious points when the Yankees are concerned.
"Jeter does not have as much range as when he was younger." WOW, WHAT A FUCKING DISCOVERY! Who does?
Did Jordan have as much hop in his step or driving ability when he came back from retirement? No he didn't, so he did what every great player does . . . he adjusted his game.
He became the best jump shooter in the entire league.
The fact that no one is writing about, because it's so convenient to omit, is that Jeter has made adjustments in his fielding as well. They guy positions himself better than anyone out there. That's why it seems most of the balls are hit right to him.
I WATCH, SO I KNOW!
Also, let's just stop with the absolute BULLSHIT, that he doesn't make great plays or that he can't get to balls that are more than a step away from him. That’s a blatant lie. I saw him do it many times last year, and no shitty reporter with an agenda is going to tell me I didn't.
And another reason that "range," stat is another piece of cybermetrics garbage is because it takes no account for coming in on a difficult short hop, one of the hardest plays to make. Jeter is the BEST. Yes, the best at that play. He charges the ball and makes that scoop and throw better than anyone. And makes it look easy.
He also goes back on a ball better than any other shortstop, that fact I actually heard some of the critics admit.
So, he comes in and goes out on the ball better than anyone, and positions himself so that he does not need to make as many long range plays to his left or right.
You see, that's a baseball thing. It can’t be measured with a fabricated mathematical system. That's why the coaches and managers in the damn game know that Jeter is the gold glove. Sure there is great talent at the position in the league. But I propose this . . . what shortstop do you want to count on to not screw up the play with one out left in the game? If you say anyone but Jeter, you don't know baseball.
Funny too, how it seems the coaches and managers in baseball got all the other positions correct with the gold glove, but not Jeter. If they're so bad at voting, then why isn't there an uprise with any of the other positions? So managers and coaches can decipher good play at all the positions except shortstop? How convenient.
It's time to wake up and realize you are trying to punish Jeter for NOT being A-Rod, for NOT being Brett Favre, for NOT being Tiger Woods. He's given you nothing to complain about, he's taken away all your fun. So now the so-called journalist are trying to make him pay for it by attacking him in the first sub par season he's ever had. A sub par season where he still was the best defensive shortstop in the league.
Say whatever you want. It's all noise. He now has 5 Gold Gloves, which puts him in a very select category at the position. Just more ammo when his career is all said and done for why he's unequivocally the greatest all-around SS that's ever played.
"Is he better than Robin Yount...probabaly"????????? Noooo.....I'm "probably" a better shortstop than Robin Yount. Jeter is "UNQUESTIONABLY" a better shortstop then Yount. One gold glove? Thats only one more then me and i don't even fucking play!
I love it
Ok. Here goes the BroKo's not willing to endure an intelligent conversation instead they turn it into a Hatred Attack. There is no hating or attacking just some simple fact stating.
You say "Why single out Jeter???
Ahhh.....because you put a post touting his Gold Glove.........I didn't see any reaon to go into a discussion on Ichiro's gold glove cause nobody even cares. Have you ever met a Mariners fan? You know why......Cause the Yankess have ruined baseball!!!
Ok..so the last line was a joke....calm down Broko's......don't get all angry.
Either way again we are not here to Say Jeter sucks or is a fraud. I was simply pointing out some facts. If Jeter's range is so great than how is he not getting to 100 to 200 more balls?
How are other SS playing in the same amount of innings getting to 100-200 more balls?
If your argument for this is that he positions himself better than anyone in the game....what does that mean? He positions himself not to get to the ball?
Yes, Positioning yourself is very important. Cal Ripken was one of the best....but many even questioned if he should be out there playing SS at this age even in the middle of the streak. Critics thought Cal was costing his team wins because he was out at SS even though he was in decline and they had younger and better options.
So it is the nature of the beast when your at the top to be disected like this....good or bad that's what it is. And nobody is saying Cut Jeter or he sucks....just that the Yankees can't beleive he is the best in the league at that position anymore cause it is simply not true.
And Goat 2 MVP's for Yount is pretty impresive even though it is only 2 more than you.
Keith you and whoever else can keep saying he's not the best but that big gold glove voted on by people much more knowledgable in the game than either of us say otherwise.
And please show me where the proof is that there's 100-200 more balls that he's not getting to. Go head, show me the proof instead of regurgitating hypothetical nonsense you heard or read.
Once again I'll bring REAL facts and you can go an read you're Cyber-Scientology-Metric System books if you'd like.
Jeter had 553 total chances at balls hit to him this year in which he fielded a MLB leading .989. End of story. There is no system that can measure balls he should have gotten to. There are way, way, way, too many variables in play during each pitch that cybermetrics cannot account for. It's bullshit, and it's why most reputable baseball minds do not take cybermetrics as an end-all-be-all stat.
It's like trying to measure whether someone should have been in better position to field a ball. You're either there or your not, the ball is either hit to you or it's not. It's what you do with it when you do get the shot, and Jeter is the most sure handed in the game. As proven by REAL statistics.
I'm not saying yount wasn't "probably" good but to put him in the same league as jeter....nah! I just point out the 5 (and counting) gold gloves to 1 is a big difference, and the actual fielding at the position is where the argument is being focused on. If not for that prick to jeters right, he'd have 7 gold gloves already.
A-rod was an incredible shortstop in his prime but moving to 3rd was a blessing for him. There's no way his body would have held up at SS.
And Jeter would have at least 2 or 3 more gold gloves if not for that damn Omar Visquel. He's the real culprit and the best fielding shortstop of all time.
why does every yankee compliment have to be a back handed one? Why try so hard to make an argument when there is none? Just say yep....he is the greatest shortstop of all time and if you had to pick a team for next year he would be your shortstop without question. Those are facts. Instead he's disected with obvious (age) and other stats that people pull out their asses with little meaning or relevance. Cause you hate hate hate the yankees! Even hitlers going "whoa....ur being a little prejudice!"
Ok. I am not trying to go Scientology on you just pointing out some facts.
You asked where does it prove Jeter didn't get to as many balls as other SS? Ah.....If you read the post it points out several SS that got to more balls than Jeter. Some 200 times more in similar amount of innings. Unless your trying to say A-Rod was gobbling up all those hits.
And your statement real baseball Minds don't believe in Sabermetrics? Ummm.......Almost all teams have Sabermaticians on staff now and it is a very REAL part of the modern game. Just because the Yankess might not adhere to it doesn't mean it is not important.
The Yankees don't adhere to it cause it doesnt matter as much to them cause they can overpay for anything.
It's like saying what does expenses have to do with running business.
The Red Sox were huge believers in it....and Nolan Ryan even beleives in it and utilizes it. Almost all baseball GM's have a huge use for it. Look it up if you don't believe it...but it's called embracing technology.
Keith you just make stuff up. Cybermetrics is in the forefront of mangers like Girardi and you know how good he is.
Yes it's used, I didn't say it's not. But it's not looked at as definite litmus test for everything. Just like anything else it should be used in moderation. Putting all the importance on it is coaching or managing strictly from a numbers point. That's not reality, and it doesn't win championships.
And what the hell does the other SS that had more chances at balls have to do with Jeter? Jeter can only play the games he's in and behind the pitchers on his team. Again, way to many variables to take those cybermetric stats as law. The Yankees have mostly fly-ball pitchers. CC and Pettitte are definitely strike out and fly ball guys, Burnett used to be a strike out/ground ball guy but now he's a a strike or or home run guy. And Phil Hughes is a fly ball out guy as well. You see I know that because I actually watch the team and player in question.
That's why you have to take those cybermetrics with a huge whopping grain of salt. They don't account for a lot of important data nor the human element.
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