26 comments:

Regs said...

Good post Keith. This season is ours.
On a side note, I feel sorry for marlin fans. I actually had to check to see if the Brewers had scheduled an exibition this week against a triple a team, but then realized that those no name stiffs were the actual Marlin major league team. I guess I didn't realize how lucky I had it. I went position by position and came to the unbiased opinion that only 1 Marlin player would even start on the Crew and maybe 1 starting pitcher would crack our top 5. What a joke!

Miami has 5 million people and they can't find 1 rich guy to buy the team who will spend money. They can't find 40,000 people in the entire area to come watch the games, when most of the players are latino and so are most of the people down there. Don't blame the economy either. Milwaukee is an industrial town who has been devestated by the reccession, but they still support their team. Its called a marketing department.

May 14, 2009 at 12:12 PM  

Koko said...

If I may play devil's advocate, and you all know I'm no Marlins fan, but you can't really call out the organization when they've won 2 World Series championships since their incarnation in '93.

Yes they have to dump the entire team after winning those championships but that's well worth it to stay competitive in a market where the fans are not very supportive.

So call out the fans all you want, but the organization is operating that team at the highest level possible, and they have 2 rings to show for it.

May 14, 2009 at 12:38 PM  

theJUANdiggler said...

If Koko is Mr. Fantastic then I want to be Mr. Spictastic for my 4rbi's.
Excellent marketing dept. Reger, too bad the other dept aint won shit since I was like 1. Those triple a guys also swept a better Brewer team last year 6-0.
Look if you know anything you know that Miami is a city that developed in the early 80's and has more transplant fans than any other city and they hold on to there teams as they should. We have shity baseball fans no doubt.
But dont feel sorry for me , as a diehard Marlin fan since day 1 I have celebrated two world series victories.
I on the other hand feel sorry for you wisconsin fan , who in our lifetime ( i know ur an older fart ) has only won two total championsips in all sports combined. The Bucks suck , the Brewers are a joke , I witnessed the Packers win one in three decades , and all the college athletic teams = irrelevant.
So dont feel sorry for me, at least I celebrated 5 Hurricane titles and some NBA and MLB titles.
I dont feel bad enough to just come out and post it but since you grabbed my attention as the Marlin fan in the Dojo ........


Also greta recap Gravel , my friendly neighborhood Brewer fan.

May 14, 2009 at 1:21 PM  

Regs said...

I would take a consistant, competitive team every year with a shot at a championship over a 1 year sellout and then a purge. I love sports because of the players rather than the jerseys. It just so happens that my exposure to Milwaukee sports has led me to be partial to them. I am not a hypocrite on this point either. Ask Keith what I think about Paul (Benedict Arnold) Molitor. He was my favorite player until he left the team for a little more money.
Its not all about a championship. Only 1 team can win every year. Before the Packers got Ted t, they had 15 straight years over .500 with 13 playoff berths and 6 NFC championship game appearances. I would take that every day rather than 1 or 2 championships and have them suck dick the rest of the time. Sure, the championships would be great, but if you are a true fan, you will suffer through the other years.
Sorry about getting off topic, but regardless of the transient nature of Miami, if the team kept their star player, the fans would fall in love with them and come out. Also, if tickets were marketed properly, people would come out. They pretend that they can't spend money until people come out, but the people won't come out until they have good players that they can cheer for.
oh and Marquette is a fixture in the NCAA tournament and top 20 and the Badger football team is a fixture in the top 20 and has won 2 Rose Bowls in the last 9 years. Bitch

May 14, 2009 at 2:16 PM  

Double S said...

Gooooood article Dinger. "Mr. Fantastic?" That's not what my mom called him. Buuuuuuuurn!

May 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM  

Koko said...

Sean, did you just post that I had sex with your mom?

Yeah, you got me bro, good one.


Oh and Regs, you're nothing if not a great and passionate fan to your teams. But as far as the Brewers go, you don't have either a one and done nor a consistently competative team. So as far as the original argument of Marlins vs Brewers. The Marlins are an easy winner.

May 14, 2009 at 2:30 PM  

Regs said...

I guess my point is if you look at the players on the Brewers. Other than Cameron and Kendall, all of the other starters were drafted by the team, came through the minors with the team, made the majors with the team, and then made the playoffs with the team. We also have most of them locked up for at least the next 3-4 years. I think when you have that type of situation, the fans connect more and are willing to spend their money to see them play.
The Marlins have a good minor league system but don't maintain it.
It would be the same as a football player who grew up in Miami, played high school there, went to play for the Canes and then was drafted by the Dolphins and played his entire career there. Of course you would love that guy more than other guys on the team.
Sign your fucking players early to long term contracts and the Marlins would be perenniel contenders. And the fans would come out. Guaranteed

May 14, 2009 at 2:54 PM  

Rich said...

Go Mets!!!!All of yall can suck a cock! The Badgers got their ass kicked by FSU at the Citrus Bowl last year. I hate the Marlins and their one fan, Juan! ha ha ha. I hate to say it, but the Marlins are better than the Brewers.

May 14, 2009 at 3:07 PM  

Double S said...

I thought I heard that the Marlins have signed some of their kids long term.

Yeah, the ugly hooker you banged that looks nothing like my mom said you didnt live up to the lofty level of "Mr. Fantastic."

May 14, 2009 at 3:08 PM  

Prosthetic Johnson said...

Keith great recap and pic of koko. Koko, I love the look. Mr. Quintana take it easy. Regs, the MArlins are a smart team for dumping their salary cap. They traded Lowell and Beckett for Hanley Ramierez and Anibal Sanchez. Yes the Redsox won another World Series but Hanley is one of the best players out there and Anibal had a no-hitter last year. The Marlins can still win a world series this year.

May 14, 2009 at 3:22 PM  

Koko said...

Let's be totally honest here. Fans may like when a player comes up through the minor league system and then becomes a good player for the team, but it has no relation at all to how many fans come out.

In ciites where fans always turn out, it's becuase they have a team that's always competiive or the city has a love affiar with the team no matter who's playing on it or how bad they are. Miami's problem is that the only deep rooted pro team is the Dolphins. They have the long history, the old-time championships and generations of fans.

The Heat, Marlins and Panthers are all 20 years old or less. It's going to take time for the city to get a rich history with the team. The Marlins are on the right track and have had great success in their early existance. The new stadium will be a huge help in developing that identity for furture generations of fans. And it will help them sign some of that young talent so they can stay competitive even after succsessful years. If the organization had not run in the fiscal manner that it had been all these years, it wouldn't exist at all because it would be in another city by now.


And Sean, this smackdown is over and I have obviously won due to your last comeback having clearly jumped the shark. Now excuse me as I am late for my daily appointment to jump your mom.

May 14, 2009 at 4:35 PM  

Keith G. said...

Wow.....All Great points guys.....Here is my five cents...

Regs...couldn't agree with you more....I would trade 2o years of decency and 1 or 2 shots at a title for a team you can root for and follow with the same excitement you had when you bought every single baseball card and memorized the players stats. Likewise I will never forget Paul Molitors .353 Batting avg and 114 runs in 1987...quite possibly my favorite year ever of baseball. And for the record I don't fault Molly for leaving.

However, back to the discussion....The Brewers are like your best friend you had growing up as a kid who lived down the street from you and you played every sport with and you had similar interests and you guys are now faily successful in life both are married and starting to have kids and hang out at least once a week to throw back beers and just BS with each other.

The Marlins are like your buddy you met your senior year in college whom you hung out with and then upon graduation he became a real estate broker in the peak of real estate started making gobs of money became arrogant, and hung out with different people spent tons of money on new cars, women, and coke.........He thought he was invincible and alienated everyone he used to hang out with. Then the market corrected itself he lost his job and all his money and was left with nothing once again....only this time he also alienated all his old friends and made himself look like a jackass to his family so now he feels like a broke ass schmuck. The one you run into at the grocery store and he tells you how he has run into some tough times but has this brilliant scheme worked out to make his money back.....but it's awkaward to talk to him cause you both know he is full of shit.

Which Friend would you choose?

Also, as far as markets go.....MLB will do everything in their power to keep Miami a team even though if the same franchise was in Cincinatti it would have been long gone.....but Miami is the Key to the hispanic market where the future lies................in MLB's Eyes.........................

May 15, 2009 at 8:33 AM  

Regs said...

Keith, great analogies. I just know that when "hells bells" plays, the game is over!!!!!

May 15, 2009 at 11:02 AM  

Koko said...

Ok damnit. Let's just go to the numbers, because Keith's analogy just made blood shoot right out of my ears. These are baseball teams and businesses. Like I already said, you absolutely can not critisize the way ownership has run the Marlins because their business model was the only fucking thing keeping them in business for all these years, so let's stop filibustering on how the Brewers have a better marketing department or better management. If anything, it's way more impressive what the Marlins ownership has been able to do in the market they're in.

The numbers do not lie, The Brewers have been in their market since 1970. During that time this is what they have to show for it:

World Series titles (0
NL Pennants (0)
AL Pennants (1) 1982
NL Central Division titles (0)
AL East Division titles [1] 1982
Wild card berths (1) 2008

Hall of Fame Players who were primarliy Brewers:

Paul Molitor, 3B-DH, 1978–1992
Robin Yount, SS-OF, 1973–1993


Wow! What a competitive team. (DEEP SARCASM INTENDED)

Best Friend, Keith? Guess what, your best friend is a loser. Time to meet new people.



Here are the Marlins' numbers in their 16 year history:

World Series titles (2) 1997 • 2003NL Pennants (2) 1997 • 2003
East Division titles (0)
Wild card berths (2) 1997 • 2003

The Marlins have already been more competive in a 16 year period and surpassed all accolades of the Brewers 39 year history. And they did it in a very difficult way with the business model they are forced to use. That model will probably change with the new stadium, if the fans can step up and support the team.

May 15, 2009 at 11:04 AM  

Regs said...

Koko, you can't use history as an indicator because between the years of 1985-2005 (with the exception of 1987 and 1992), the Brewers were terribly run by an owner who wouldn't spend money and several GMs that had no clue. In 2005, the team changed its culture, started spending money on their scouting department, starting bringing in "winning" free agents to help us out. Our teams 1976-1984 had "backbone" players and not just Yount and Molitor. Thomas, Ogilvie, Moore, Gantner, Vuke, Caldwell, Hisle, Cooper were all guys that developed their skills with the team.
I am talking about the current state of the team and the fact that we attracted 35,000 people on a Thursday afternoon against the Marlins.

May 15, 2009 at 11:11 AM  

Koko said...

Ah, the classic DEFLECTION! That was not the original argument Regs now come on. We were all taking about the franchises. Also, you can't say, "you can't use history as an indicator." It's the most important indicator we have. That would be like a Tampa Bay Bucs fan saying that they've been a competitive team throughout their franchise history, just don't count the first 20 years.

Now if we are talking about current status. Yes the Brewers are doing a good job right now of being an exciting and competitive team, no doubt about that. But still, Brewers fans do not have any clout to go bashing anyone elses franchise. Especially a team with 2 recent championships.

May 15, 2009 at 1:17 PM  

Regs said...

Actually my origional arguement was how sorry the Marlins were and what a shame it was that they cant keep players, when in fact, that is bullshit. My suggestion was to get a rich guy in Miami to buy the team with the understanding that they might take a loss the first couple of years. Then take your best 8 talents in the organization and move them up, put them in a position, sign them to a 6 year contract with the understanding that the team believes in them and watch them grow. Do the same with your top pitching prospects. Hire a patient manager who can help the players grow.
What will happen, assumming the scouting of these players was effective, is the team will suck in year 1, be better in year 2, and be competing for the playoffs in year 3-6. At that point, the fans will know all of these players and will go to games to watch familiar faces, not familiar uniforms.
Also, during this time period, they will have a new stadium opening, which will also draw fans.
Don't blame the fans for not coming out, blame the owners. The Brewers changed their culture 4 years ago and look at them now. I am right, you guys are wrong

May 15, 2009 at 1:59 PM  

Rich said...

Can I get a shoulder tap!? I would like to state that Koko has the better argument and with my newly acquired Master's degree, I proclaim him champion of this discussion.

Eventhough, he forgot to mention that the Brewers currently lead the Wildcard this year. Its May, please!!!!!!!hahahahahaha

May 15, 2009 at 2:18 PM  

Koko said...

Alright I'll say it one last time Regs, had the ownership of the Marlins gone to the model you're so animated about, they would have never won the 2 championships they have, and there's absolutely no guarantee that young players that with a 6-year contract will become great players. In the meantime they would get the same amount of fans but paying out the ass for players that may or may not come to fruition. It's a gamble the ownership could not afford to do in this market.

Now maybe with this new stadium and revenue streams it will generate, they can afford to be more patient with players and sign them to long term deals.

I wouldn't change one damn thing with the Marlins ownership, they've squeezed everything they can to keep this team relavant and competative in the situation it's in. Now they may get a chance to employ a more stable business model.

May 15, 2009 at 2:29 PM  

Koko said...

Do we have to call you Masta Rich now?

May 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM  

theJUANdiggler said...

Ok just some info you guys may not know
The Marlins have had three different owners in that time ( huzienga , henry , Loria )
Henry the RedSox owner bought the team from Huzienga and ditched it one season and left the team in shambles !
Also the Marlins have one of the worst deals in Mlb historyin the fact that they play in Dolphin Stadium wich requires the Marlins ownership to give 30% of the ticket sales to the Dolphins and 100% of concessions and parking go to.....guess who ....The Dolphins.
The owners our handcuffed and yet our Gm Beinfest has reconstructed the team 3 times over. ( they have been locked into this deal into 2010 )
Also we still average ( i admit poor) 13- 15 thousand a game, but it always look worse on Tv when they are scattered all over a football stadium that seats 79 thousand and yells EMPTY with orange seats !
And finally, what the hell else are you gonna do in Milwaukee then go to a Brewer game ?
Along with all the transplant fans I was discussing ( many more Yankee , Met ,RedSox fans in Miami) there is so much more to do in Miami like go to south beach , take your boat out , or watch famous models and people prety much everwher you go. We have clubs that open at 4am for christs sake, people wake up in miami at 7pm game time !
AAAAAAANNNNNNDDDDD , people assume we blew our team up after our 2003 CHAMPIONSHIP ( see I can say that ).
FALSE , we traded Brad Penny , Derek Lee , Juan Pierre and Pudge.
We still had Beckett , Lowell, Pavano, Wilis , Cabrera ,Castillo and Conine retired. Then we signed Carlos Delgado to a multi-year deal. The attendance went up but not much. The Dolphins, Canes and HEAT are kings in So Fla and always will be.
But again dont feel sorry for me, Marlin fan....we have had competitive teams also that didint make the playoffs just like your Brewers have , to say I dont support my team when they are down is plain stupid , Im a Dolphin fan for fuck sakes !

May 15, 2009 at 2:53 PM  

theJUANdiggler said...

also werent you gonna pee your pants if you made the playoffs a couple years ago......SAD !

May 15, 2009 at 2:57 PM  

Koko said...

So uh, yeah. Good review Keith.

May 15, 2009 at 4:15 PM  

Prosthetic Johnson said...

AAAAAANNNNNDDDDDDDD.......the Marlins have a good chance this year. Their management made goos trades and they still have good no name players.

May 16, 2009 at 10:30 AM  

Anonymous said...

this so called business model the marlins have only works cause they have great scouts. If they loose that then the next time they sell off the players they will end up with a new roster of shitty players. So its really not a good business model just good scouting and a little luck!

May 17, 2009 at 1:22 AM  

Koko said...

But the scouts are part of the business model which make it work. If you don't have the scouts then obviously it's not a model you would want to use. But they know they do, so it's smart business.

May 18, 2009 at 9:44 AM  

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